*Edited to offer the link for the Creighton Method of NFP (which is always on my sidebar under Links) Click here for the Creighton site.
That's how NFP was described in this article I read (thanks to Vicki for the link).
Don't get the wrong idea. It was a breath of fresh air, this article. No beating around the bush. I think any true NFP practitioner would agree that it's bluntly accurate. Thank God for that.
Here are my thoughts:
1.) "You can't talk to experienced older couples, either, or you'll get an earful about the bad old days of rhythm-and-blues and 23 children."
Boy have we run into that numerous times. Starting with my own parents, too. They married in 1960, and at that time, NFP mostly consisted of circling dates on your calendar, guesstimating. Being extremely unreliable, no wonder they scoffed at NFP.
What I scoff at, though, is there unwillingness to listen to how NFP has truly changed, and it can be used successfully. (requiring much patience).
Oh, and to add in, many old fogies seem to believe that being fully Catholic= having as many babies as your body can squeeze out. NOT TRUE. The Catechism teaches no such thing. The Pope has never told his audience or written an encyclical stating that faithful Catholics have baby after baby after baby...
Rather, the correct teaching is that we stay open to the gift of life (even when it doesn't seem like a gift), and allow the twofold purpose of marriage to manifest between a wife & husband. For some couples, they feel large (and very large) families are apart of God's plan for them. For others, they feel they have grave reasons to limit their family size (and for some that number may be just one child).
2.) Nor can you talk to your doctor, who will write "family planning: nothing" on your medical record (especially if you've caught that Sexually Transmitted Disease known as "pregnancy").
Something else I've experienced. Finding a doctor when we moved here was a challenge, being that my first OB was an NFP-only physician. Not only did he support it, he also taught a mucus-only method. I felt so lucky to have that doctor.
We moved here and there was no such doctor closer than an hour away. I found a great OB, but only after firing one. The first one argued with me about NFP. She, an OB/GYN, actually pulled the old "you know what they call people who practice NFP? PARENTS!". Gosh, I guess she really wants to limit her patients (as well as my patience).
Making medical suggestions is one thing, but she showed no respect for my choice of family planning. She did not accept NFP as a credible form for child spacing.
I found that to be so disappointing on an intellectual level. She went to med school to learn and master the female body, yet she (herself a female) couldn't grasp the natural cycles of a woman, using it to manipulate it for or against conceiving?
3.) But for many of us, uniting our wills with God's sounds more like "Uncle."
Nothing else to say about this other than a big"WORD".
4.) It doesn't help that some proponents of NFP pretend that it's all togetherness and respect, profundity and cuddles.
Oh my, this could be the longest of my thoughts yet.
I remember when we were first learning Creighton, and our instructor was teaching us about SPICE. I wanted to bust out laughing. For the sake of respect I did not, but I couldn't believe the sugar-coated blur that seemed to be. Not that I don't think it makes sense, but I was beyond believing people when they said NFP was all honky-dory and rose petals.
What planet were they from?
One without sex drives?!
I mean, I advocate NFP too (or at least used to...I'm coming back around in my faith here), but I've always tried to be honest about it. I've also always tried to relate it to the fact that any form of birth control (not saying NFP and birth control are one in the same) can have its tribulations and frustrations. Nothing is exempt from that. So long as humans are the ones practicing a method, human nature will allow for error, misjudgement, forgetfulness, or misinterpretation of a bodily sign.
I think the nice thing is that if two people are working truly together for charting, then you do actually develop a whole new level of respect in that relationship. One you didn't have before adding in intimacy and shared responsibility for possible pregnancies.
5.) Talk to your priest.. But don't reject out of hand a celibate man's ideas about sex: After hearing 46 million confessions, he probably knows more than you do
I've been guilty of this. And this is the argument I hear most from fallen Catholics or non-Catholics. "The Church doesn't belong in my bedroom". I've even said it myself.
The problem is once you've learned something, you can't unlearn it.
Why does the Church interfere in the bedroom?
Same as any church.
God's ministers are meant to teach us right from wrong, and the value of a life. Obviously the first value of a life is at the moment of conception. Conception is a [possible] consequence of sex, so it's perfectly sensible. I don't think the Church is trying to tell us ow to have sex or when to do it. I think the Church is trying to show us the spiritual depth of what we're doing. It may be frustrating, but most incredible things in life are at times.
6.) Try to understand why God wants this for you. He doesn't intend for you to be subserviently miserable
Something I've often caught myself thinking. You know, that He was making me suffer or punishing me, or simply not wanting me to enjoy sex or this life. Sounds immature, doesn't it? Maybe it is. But it's the truth.
7.) As long as it's acceptable for everyone else to talk about sex these days, why should Catholics be shy?
I've wondered this since I had "the talk". If we're supposed to be respectful of sex and its two-fold purpose, why should we be taught about it in a dirty or hushed manner? TALK ABOUT IT!
I have always been very open in this area. Maybe too open, but I don't get how you can be married and act like you don't know sex. Come on. I'm not trying to be perverted. I swear.
I'm very, very thankful for my NFP friends and the ones I can talk about it with openly. So so thankful.
I think we should have many more homilies on sex. More classes. Heck, we should have NFP support groups through our parishes! (ha ha...somewhat kidding here)
8.) Many disenchanted couples are suffering from a lack of honest information about NFP.
Yes yes yes. I notice it even among my own siblings.
More as to why we should talk about it, get the word out. Yo.
---------------------------
Sorry for this crazy long post. Let's just say I feel the fire burning, so I had to go with it while I could. If you're still reading, I thank you. I hope it was worth it.
41 comments:
Awesome post! A couple of thoughts occurred to me as I read it. First, the idea that NFP involves misery -- well, lack of doing what I want whenever I want it; but does that constitute misery? When I was divorced, I went five years single, no sex. Was I miserable? If I was, at times, it wasn't due to the lack of sex but the lack of partnership. I don't think sex would have solved that, anyway.
I really can't see how so many people view NFP as a hardship. Does it make sex less good? No. In fact, sex is far better with NFP than it is with artificial hormones that affect your sex drive, or condoms that interfere with the intimacy. In fact, the time spent without tends to cause desire to build up, making the intimacy better. Is it frustrating sometimes? Sure. But there are benefits as well. I think "modern" people just have a hard time not getting exactly what they want when they want it with absolutely no exceptions.
You're so right, Christina.
I also think it's a blame issue.
IF something happens-say pregnancy-it's much easier to blame something artificial, at least that's been my experience. People are more intimidated to assume the full responsibility for themselves, as required w/ NFP.
You can't "blame" latex or artificial hormones in that case.
I get that it's intimidating. But you're right. It seems more & more a "me me me" nation.
Like THAT doesn't contribute to marital problems, or even a higher divorce rate?
ok I am not Catholic, but does withdrawl count as NFP? serious question here.. or are you not allowed to pull out to have it be called NFP?
I have to be honest here... it is hard for me to think NFP would work if you didn't also add the withdrawl because while my cycles are very normal, there is always that one time, where that one egg, popped out ahead of schedule.. hence why that OB said poeple who practice NFP are also called parents? Am I totally off in your opinion? :)
like I said I have no idea what is and is not actually a true practice of NFP?
Okay, I just typed a loooong reply to this post and when I sent it, the computer said it was in offline mode and I LOST it! Oooooh, frustration!!
This is too important to leave without comment, though, so I will try my best to retype everything- (BAAAAHHH!
First of all, you said just about everything that needed to be said--Thank you for the great post!!
Second of all, I have a huge bone to pick right now with the people who keep the subject of NFP so hush hush and taboo. I have been searching for a way to kind of "put the message out there" that NFP is more than meets the eye...that's its not so daunting as people would have it seem...that it actually WORKS! Its efficacy shocked the CRAP out of me...and since it threw me for such a loop, I want to tell everyone who will listen that its really NOT that big a deal! It's not weird or "out there" and there are soooo many more benefits that come with NFP that aren't mentioned in the gay SPICE chapter--ha ha! You don't want to know how many times Andy and I play "Affirming touch?...Or arousing touch!" Okay, that sounded waaay more perverted than I meant for it to! We just love to make fun of it!)
Getting back on track here--I thought since my brother John works at a Catholic radio station that broadcasts internationally, that it'd be a perfect place for me to talk (publicly) about NFP--I kinda casually pitched an idea to the young adult show's host (geared to ages from teens through thirties) to have me and my NFP teacher, maybe an NFP doctor or something and tell young people the truths about NFP from both a personal and a professional perspective....Weeelll, they kind of put the message across to me that NFP might not be an appropriate subject!!! I think it is the PERFECT subject for that age group--ESPECIALLY if the Church wants to get people actually USING NFP!! And its not just about sex, people...Its incredible how many things I have learned about my body after learning NFP--I have found problems I never would have found (b/c apparently my old docs have been MO-RONS--every doctor seems like a moron after learning Creighton--Dr. Collins, you can never retire!!)--I have also found out that things I THOUGHT were wrong with me (that I have been TOLD were wrong with me) were actually quite normal! (ie: I do NOT have an "irregular cycle" dang it! From my peak day til my period starts is exactly 12 days every single time regardless of my cycle lengths!) If young people learned about NFP at a younger age, they would be less likely to let medical problems go without treatment--there would probably be less premarital sex (NFP definitely puts a different spin on sex--Like you said, it can't be unlearned no matter how hard you wish! ;oP)---I think if young girls learned to chart just for health reasons alone, they wouldn't have to have those difficult conversations with their spouses when they got married ("Should we? Shouldn't we use NFP?")--they'd already be doing it...I could go on and on!
(I feel like I'm leaving a message on your answering machine and its giving me a 10 second warning--lol!)
Last thing, I swear! Andy and I are now a presenting couple for Engaged Encounter Weekends (starting this Fall) and I have to say that the first audience is going to hear me on the old soap box--It is time to bring this into the light of day in a totally non-terrifying kind of way. Dontcha think?
On the other side of things, NFP is NOT easy. It can be frustrating as crap! I am a bona fide member of the good old Yellow Stamp Club (fourteen day mucus cycle, ladies and gentlemen!) so I can tell you about frustration...but the benefits that come from those little stamps are far worth the frustration in the long run. When I go to the OB/Gyn, she can take one look at my chart and see what's been going on with my body for the last YEAR, not just rely on what she sees and hears at one tiny visit. I am amazed that more doctors haven't learned Creighton--The doctor who designed the program deserves so much more respect than what he receives in the medical community--I mean, come on--The man has studied nothing but the menstrual cycle for THIRTY YEARS!
I'm going to leave it at that for tonight--Sorry to be so long winded! Thanks again for the post!
Great post and great comments - I agree with you guys so much, what's the point of even adding anything.
Can I add that if anyone hasn't read the book The Good News About Sex and Marriage by Christopher West is truly missing out. We use NFP, but at times I just felt ugh about it. Not that I ever wanted to use bc but I just needed something that truly explained sex and the church. It's great.
I feel like I'm pretty open about NFP myself. Being the oldest of all my siblings and my parents having a huge family - not because they didn't use, but b/c they wanted a big family. I feel like I'm kind of the ring leader in teaching my siblings and talkign to them. My sister is getting married in Feb. and she and I have been talking a lot about it. I don't want sex to be some secret thing and I want her and her fiance to realize the love and benefits it brings.
I'm sorry not a great comment - but I wanted to comment and I agree with everything, so you know. whatever.
Mojavi.. I will let Sharon respond but the 'pulling out' method does not count. You are spilling your mans God given seed. *Hugs* This is a hard thing for many to over come- I read once that sex is a pleasurable thing and the devil loves to try to control us over it because it's such a temptation. Not pointing fingers! I've done my share of mistakes.
Andrea-
Thanks for mentioning that book!
That book cleared up so many things for me, and I loved that it was in simple terms (as opposed to heavy theological language).
Mojavi,
Thanks for commenting.
Most of the people I know that practice NFP do so mostly for moral reasons. Being guided by the Catholic Church, withdrawl would be considered against the principles of NFP, since the man ejaculated outside the woman's body.
I know that's incredibly frustrating to read and understand.
The oral idea behind NFP is that we respect life fully from the beginning. Being open to life from the beginning means every marital act following through; i.e., every act allows for the sperm to "deposit" in the female's body. Then there is no denying the procreative and unitive purpose of intercourse: the act has been completed required for conception.
The unitive act is what it means-fully uniting with your spouse. If he withdrawls, he is keeping part of his physical self from you (the sperm), and therefor not fully uniting in the marital act.
I know that's the whole point-keep the sperm away so as to avoid conception.
However, with NFP, you abstain during the fertile times, and have sex when you're not ovulating. So there is not egg for the sperm to fertilize.
I don't think you're totally off. :)
I think that most people don't know the accurate stats for NFP effectiveness, including OBs.
I was skeptical, but pleasantly surprised.
In fact, the effective rate for NFP is somewhere around 98%-99%, depending n the user. Most people don't know that it carries the same rate as artificial forms of birth control.
I know this is forever long, but to add in something else.
I also know people who don't like the artificial forms of birth control, and they practice natural birth control, which is basically using the method of NFP, but allowing for withdrawl or artificial use during the fertile period. There are no moral reasons behind it, but desires to keep chemicals out of the body, etc.
That differs from the NFP described in this article because of the moral issue at hand (going back to the unitive factor mentioned above).
I'm sorry this was so long, but I do hope I answered your question!
If not, fire away and I'll do my best. :)
I'm embarrassed.
I meant MORAL idea, not oral.
Great post Sharon! Really has me thinking too. I need to come back around on this too, and take the local NFP class even if I go by myself. Still struggling with the whole "pulling out" thing and maybe I'm a little scared too? anyway, just wanted to say thanks for this post
Jen-
that's ridiculous that the radio station turned you down. I think you should contact the Bishop, gain his approval, and take THAT to the radio station! Seriously.
Yellow stamp club...yup. I've been there. HATE it. lol
I'm so glad you learned Creighton. I remember trying to talk you into it before Aidan was even two! lol
Seems like just yesterday.
Crystal-
Do you know which method he class teaches?
I'd be happy to go w/ you so you don't have to go alone! I could always use a refresher. :)
Mojavi--My husband and I were using the pullout method for a looong time before we finally caved and learned the Creighton Method of NFP (http://www.creightonmodel.com/). Nobody ever gave a good explanation for what the method actually was and how it worked--I always assumed a) it was just watching the calendar and b) that when you used it, you wound up with 40 kids. My body does not seem to handle being pregnant AT ALL (even though after charting with Creighton, I was able to detect three big things wrong with me that were messing me up "down there" pretty bad--working on fixing it as we speak!)...My husband got curious one day and told me we should at least find out what Creighton is--After all, we hated condoms (dang UTIs!) and the Pill was just \awful for my body (have you SEEN the tv commercials??!! The warnings are ridiculous for that stuff!!)--So, we found out. We tried the method. We have been using it for over a year now and we really do know beyond the shadow of a doubt that we will not get pregnant....and we never do! It teaches you to be able to see signs in cervical mucus which indicate ovulation---and it is accurate! If you ever need more info, let me know. This isn't just for Catholics--I think its awesome for anyone for health benefits---The spiritual benefits are great, too, but Catholicism is not what NFP is "about"--it's just advocated by the Church b/c of the great spiritual benefits that come with it and because it follows our particular church's teaching. Not as crazy a system as everyone thinks-Pretty great actually! Pop over to my blog if you are interested in checking it out--Leave a comment or e-mail me!
Nobody ever gave a good explanation for what the method actually was and how it worked
Hey, I sure tried!
YES, YES, YES! You definitely did, but I mean a step by step kind of instruction--You and I talked about just about everything else--That's why I even THOUGHT about using the method! (I have you to thank for soooo many HUGE decisions Andy and I have made!!! You are AMAZING, I can't even tell you!)--I didn't mean to make that sound like I just accidentally bumped into NFP--I didn't at all! It was definitely a progression of YEARS involving my faith and trust issues, and ultimately giving in to things I never thought possible and LETTING GO! I thank you for all of those things--What I missed is beyond "This is WHY you SHOULD do it and you check your mucus like this."---What you learn in the class gives that extra shock value---Like actually learning how to use the stamps on the chart and going home to do it all using your own body's signs---Like the first time you "use" ;oP a green day without the pullout method and all of that good stuff.
I will thank you forever for the ways you helped bring me to this and I am so, so, soooo sorry I didn't put that message across!
So, moral, peope?: 1) Find a friend who uses NFP (we'll step in for you in that dept!) 2) LISTEN to said friend and 3.) TRY IT! You cannot see how it works without trying it!
:o)
Wow! Great post. Love the dialog in the comments as well. I have lurked around your blog for a while and maybe commented once or twice. I could not pass this one up. I threw my BC away on Jan. 28th of this year, when I returned to the Catholic Church (long story--check my blog for it). Anyway, I have not regretted doing so. I thought for sure I would be pregnant before now, but have not because I am doing some sort of unofficial version of NFP. Why not the real deal? Because if I were to get pregnant, I would be thrilled. :) I have been so convinced of the dangers of BC while reading your blog, Andrea's and Jennifer's. They have really made a difference in my life. Anyway, I am just so glad that you posted this. It is eloquently written and easy to understand. Thanks.
I'm not sure, but I think it's a couple-to-couple league class so it would be sympto-thermal? don't really want to do that one, cause I never remember to take my temp and already have so much stuff going on! I am going to check out your link and look into finding a Creighton model class/teacher. (hmm, or Jen can come up to Ohio and teach me? didnt you say you were going to learn how to teach it?)
Mandy-
Thank you! :) How sweet.
I'll be checking out your blog when my boys NAP!
I find that to be a great appeal to NFP: any given day you can take yourself "off" of it. Our instructor always said a benefit was talking with each other even DAILY. It's a great benefit, imo. We've had a period where we skipped charting and just went w/ the flow, too.
Thanks again for the blog compliment. Reading that someone actually learned or benefited from my posts makes it all seem worth it. :)
In all fairness to the old fogeys you're so quick to scoff at, please remember that these women were often told by their priests (who were wrong, but who would dare to tell them that, especially in the 50s and 60s) that their duty was to pretty much squeeze out as many babies as possible before finally heaving their final breath, and that a 99% effective, Church sanctioned method of birth control was not available to them.
Women from earlier generations often suffered terribly as a result of the attitudes of many priests who were often unequipped to deal with sensitive marital issues, and were also often quite misogynistic as well, cavalierly dismissing the physical, mental and emotional abuse some women were undergoing, and cavalierly dismissing the terrible pain and suffering of the gynecological nightmares they often underwent as the result of medically ill-advised pregnancies.
Also, some people plain ol' ain't interested in the goings on between you and your husband. Some of us were raised to find certain topics inappropriate for mixed, casual company, and what's happenin' with your crotch is one of those topics.
In a closed, intimate setting, this topic is fine, if agreed upon by all present. In mixed company, or in a more casual setting where not everyone is comfortable with such topics, it's inappropriate. Actually, it's not just inappropriate, it's vulgar, but yours is the generation that shows no shame when it comes to all kinds of public revelations and confessions and whatnot, so you probably don't understand that casually chatting about your vagina to the older woman next to you is most likely beyond appalling to her.
No one's asking anyone to stop talking about NFP in the appropriate setting, but forcing such conversations on those who really aren't interested for whatever reasons is just plain bad manners and only makes you look ill-bred and pushy.
As for the hospital records, there's a reason why it's called family planning and there's a reason why NFP = nothing in that context.
Everything in the world is not a personal attack against Catholics and everything in the world is not a springboard for you to showcase the wonderfulness of you.
It's high time your generation began exercising a little humility and restraint -- it's not all about you all the time. You are not nearly as special as you think you are, or at least not in the sense you think you are.
Joanna-
It's high time your generation began exercising a little humility and restraint -- it's not all about you all the time. You are not nearly as special as you think you are, or at least not in the sense you think you are.
You obviously don't know me. I don't think I am some extraordinary person, nor do I think it's about me all the time. Trust me. Having 2 kids has taught me that loud & clear.
But even before kids, my parents just did not raise me that way.
I am the youngest of 8, and we ere raised to put others first, help people, etc. I think you are very out of line with your comment.
You say it's not against Catholics all the time. You sure write as though YOU are offended. Maybe Catholics aren't the only ones taking things out of context.
I'm also not quick to scoff at the older generation. Scroll through my other posts-see for yourself.
I have more respect for the retiring generation than my own.My parents are a part of that generation. (in their 70's)
I never said I thought it was ALWAYS the right time to speak on this issue. What I DID write is that it frustrates me that that older generation, in my experience, does not WANT to learn or see that NFP truly HAS changed.
if these women have been so scorned in the way you say, I think it'd be a good healing point for them to hear this.
I certainly guard when I talk about this and with whom. I don't refer to my "crotch" (as you put it) in these conversations. I wasn't raised to speak that way, and if I am having a legitimate conversation about NFP, I use the technical terms.
It sounds like you have some issues. I'm sorry if you found this to be an insult to your generation. Please read it again. I didn't SCOFF at older people, but rather one of the things that's done.
And please read through my posts. You'll see I scoff plenty more at my own generation.
Goodness, lady, have yourself a good day.
No,I don't know you and, by the same token, you obviously don't know all the "old fogeys" at whom you scoff.
I am not offended by anyone's use or non-use of any particular method of birth control. I am offended by the attitude you display here when it comes to women of previous generations, women whose lives you obviously haven't bothered to explore more fully before you announce how happy you are to scoff at them.
Just because YOU think something might be a "good healing point" for another person doesn't mean it will be. It just might dredge up a lot of deeply painful memories and emotions. If someone isn't as open to a particular topic as you personally would like them to be, they might have very good reasons for wishing not to discuss that topic, in which case, it's only good manners for you to not force the issue and also not to scoff at them for not being open to it.
You may claim this isn't scoffing at them particularly, but scoffing at their feelings on this topic, a topic as personal and painful as it may be for some people, is the same thing.
BTW, YOU were the one who was only too ready to claim you were scoffing at these women for their unwillingness to discuss a topic you wanted to discuss. Your words, right up there in the original post, in black and white. Next time, choose your words more wisely. Scoffing means to treat with derision and scorn, to mock, to look down upon, etc. Your choice of words, honey, and, yeah, I do have issues with people being scoffed at just because they don't kow-tow to precious little you.
Now, you go and have that great day -- just think, an brand new day to find people to mock and deride and express your scorn for...goody for you.
Actually, Joanna, you brought up SCOFF.
You need to read my post CORRECTLY and stop the attack.
I am fine with ANY person, regardless of their age, to not want to join in a discussion of NFP.
That was never the point when I brought up the generation.
MY point, if you read it correctly, is that NFP-USERS are often scoffed at by older people who only knew of the unreliable rhythm method of NFP.
I have been in a position, more than once, Joanna, where I have asked about having kids, gave my answer, then had to listen to someone go on about how NFP will only get my pregnant, etc. That same person only knew the rhythm method, and in MY DEFENSE, when i tried to explain that it HAS changed and has an effective rate to match artificial means of birth control, I was scoffed at. I wasn't even given the chance to e heard.
*I* was "attacked" first, by a person of this wonderful generation.
I don't care if someone does or does not want to talk about it. Fine. It's not on the top of my list, either. HOWEVER, if someone is going to tell me incorrect information about something I am doing, I WILL defend that and point out the inaccuracy.
Btw, as for the belittling, defining SCOFF for me-thanks.I am fully aware of the definition of the word scoff. If you'd like, some time you can meet me and I'll show you my credentials. You seem big on things in black & white. I have a few things in black&white confirming I have a decent brain in my head.
Now, you go and have that great day -- just think, an brand new day to find people to mock and deride and express your scorn for...goody for you.
Gosh, that's pretty damn rude. Being a person of age, I'd expect better manners. Isn't that right? The older generation is all selfless and polite?
You certainly don't offer a good example of that.
Right. Off to mock. More like make a lunch for my two boys, do some laundry, and take care of others. That's what this bratty, self-centered blogger does.
Joanna--There are SOOOO many things I could say right now, but directed toward closed minded people like you, it would clearly be a waste of time and thought.
Sharon's ideas are not "forced" upon you, nor are you "forced" to sit and read them. If you're so offended, then MOVE ON!
The truth is we DO have a method of family planning that IS 99% effective when used correctly. It doesn't help to whine about the unfairness of the past. Not learning about it leaves so many people who cannot use conventional methods of birth control in the dark situations you speak of. It is so sad that people like you are so concerned with keeping it all under wraps to make yourself feel better. Who's really the selfish one?--Things have changed for the better and the train is moving on, lady. If you want to sit and gripe about what things were like 50 or 60 years ago, I have better topics for you to nit-pick than this one!
Sharon is a grounded, smart, funny, selfless woman and a good friend of mine for the last 17 years. I think I know her better than you do. Don't chastise people/subjects you know nothing about.
Oh, and by the way, CROTCH, CROTCH, CROTCH, CERVICAL MUCUS, TAMPON, SEX, SEX, SEX, CROTCH! (These things exist and we talk about them--and thank GOD for that or we'd all sit around becoming bitter self-righteous biddies like someone else I know.....)
No,Sharon, I did not bring up "scoff".
I quote: "What I scoff at, though, is there unwillingness to listen to how NFP has truly changed, and it can be used successfully."
I realize previous generations may scoff at what they understand NFP to be. In this case, "scoff" is an appropriate choice of words. The Church-sanctioned method of birth control during previous generations was, to put it mildly, a joke, and deserved the derision with which it is now looked upon by those who had nothing else available to them. Had YOU bothered to read what I wrote, you'd see that I offered an explanation for this attitude.
Your justification for scoffing at those whom you obviously know little about is merely that they don't want to talk about it.
Big difference there, dear. Huge difference. It would take some intellectual and emotional depth and maturity to see that, along with a liberal dash of humility and compassion, however.
If your poorly expressed opinions and your mediocre grasp of basic grammar are any indication of your "credentials", sorry, but I'm not really impressed. Yes, I see you claim to be a teacher. Hmmm...a teacher in 21st century USA... Is this really something to brag about given the appalling state of education in this country? Don't think so.
I'm not completely selfless, but then I'm not Jesus Christ, nor am I blogging to the world about what a saint I am. I also never bother to be polite to those who've been rude to me.
Also, that you have children and perform various tasks basic to stay-at-home motherhood doesn't make you special or holy or a saint. That you use/used NFP doesn't make you special or holy or a saint (which is really what this all boils down to for your generation -- that your choice of birth control makes you the holiest thing ever to trounce down the nave.
Newsflash: I have more than twice as many children as you do, and I never used any birth control, including NFP. I am more than a little tired of the attitude expressed by your generation in which the mere use of NFP somehow makes you holier or better or more Catholic than anyone else, or that the use of NFP makes your family planning choices holier or better or more Catholic than someone else's.
It doesn't.
Here's another tidbit for you, girlie: having to wait a day or two for your next orgasm isn't suffering. If that's all the suffering you'll ever experience in your life, count yourself lucky.
So get off the "my 99% effective NFP is such a cross to bear and makes me so holy" bandwagon. Many women who came before you and didn't have the advantage of a Church-sanctioned 99% effective method of birth control suffered far worse than you ever will, and they really don't want you gloating about how fab your as-effective-as-the-pill BC method is. They're all post-menopausal now, it's a moot point as far as they're concerned, and they don't want to go there. Get over it.
JOANNA-
Suffering. You know so little of me.
Waiting a week or two for sex is nothing.
For your information, I am no stranger to suffering, either physically or mentally (and by mentally, I mean other than this ridiculous attack by YOU)
Wanna hear about it?
Let's start with the miscarriage I had in 2006. Do you want to hear about the blood? Over a pint of blood that left my body in the bathroom of our home, before I felt our baby leaving my body?! Then the contractions I felt on the way to the hospital?! Then the d&c. Then the depression.
How about kidney stones while pregnant, disabling me from doing the not-so-saintly or heroic tasks sch as caring for my children?
You are way out of line, lady. Stay off my blog. You are judging in a very rude, offensive way, and you, MISS, have just crossed the line.
Age and # of kids makes you no saint, either.
So help me if I am ever in Irving, NJ where you are...
Stay off my blog, unless you come here to apologize.
Btw, I find it peculiar you have your own blog set to private. What's wrong? Not very confident in what you write?
Jennifer, neither you nor Sharon have to respond, either. Your point...?
Where have I expressed a desire to keep discussion of NFP under wraps? That's a bizarre accusation and I'd like to know what it's based on.
Who is whining about the unfairness of the past? Again, please explain. Pointing out that women of previous generations may have mixed feelings on this subject is not whining about the past. It's counting those women as human beings and legitimizing their experiences. I'm sorry the realities of other people's lives make you uncomfortable, but to dismiss them completely is more than a bit selfish and insensitive of you.
It's great that, ah, "things have changed for the better and the train is moving on", but how is that justification for absolute dismissal of the suffering of those who came before you?
Ooh. You can "scream" words like crotch and tampon and cervical mucous and sex out loud a bajillion times! You're so kewl!! Or maybe you're suffering from Tourette's. Whatever.
Exactly. I know nothing of what you may or may not have suffered. Nor you anyone else. Therefore I don't scoff at your experiences and only ask that you don't scoff at other people's experiences. Thank you for making my point for me.
BTW, physically threatening me while disclosing my location is both a violation of Blogger's TOS and a crime.
You're being reported.
I NEVER physically threatened you, and check my sidebar-your location is listed on my Live traffic Feed each time you log in here. So stop coming!
mucous
As a teacher of the 21st Century, let me point out that you misspelled that word.
Yes, and now all your information is with my local police department, with Blogger administration and with my lawyer.
Even if you delete the words, there's a permanent record of that threat, and you will be held accountable.
Joanna--NFP is all about sex...all about mucus....all about TALKING about it...UGH! I feel so sorry for you.....
Joanna-
I think harassment is more like it. (you to me)
Look back-you were asked and told to leave and not come back to my blog.
Wow!
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Why are you arguing semantics?
She must not be getting any.
I don't even know what to say about all this fighting - this is absolutely ridculous and quite sad.
There is so much to be said that I can't even gather my thoughts around it - I have a deep burning in the pit of my stomach of anger and I know without stepping back I'll be out of line. Just because you aren't face to face and you're in bloggy land doesn't give anyone the right to be rude and hurtful to others. Has this solved anything of making someone else understand your point - no just hurtful words and anger were pointed.
The truth is the truth of NFP - it's the only form of BC that the church teaches and I hate it even in the same context as BC. Yes one generation may not have understood, or been taught - that's understandable, but it's time to stand up and learn it (no matter what your age) and teach this generation the love of life.
I don't even know if that makes sense. *hugs* Sharon, I loved this post. =)
Joanna--Why would Sharon be in trouble for YOU coming to her blog on your own free will MULTIPLE times and harassing HER??? I think the NJ police and the big wigs at Blogger are all having a good laugh at your expense right now.
*sigh* No point. Noooo point!
Go Google another NFP post to blast, "girlie"
Hi! I found your blog through Andrea's - Momma in Flip Flops. Someone sent me a link to that same Simcha Fisher article recently and I mostly liked it too. Don't get me wrong, we are all about NFP and Life over here at my house, but reading the comments on the article (the ones posted to Simcha, not the ones here) one funny thing struck me: almost all of the advocates for NFP, and the ones who said they use it, all seem to have loads of kids! Ha ha! Including myself. I have 4 with #5 on the way. I think that is sometimes one of the problems with NFP - the people who use it are open to life, so they do tend to have large families, which makes other people think that the NFP just doesn't work. The thing - it does work! Many of us knew we were fertile (not everyone, but many), it's just that we have to revisit our reasons for not conceiving almost monthly, and many times we realize that whatever reasons we had before are gone now. We re-adjust the priorities all the time. It's that whole "uniting our will's with God's" that has many people confused. Sorry to be long-winded. That's just my 2 cents. Thanks for the great post and just brninging people's attention to this important topic!
Joanne--I think waaaay too many things have been lost in translation between us today. I am sorry if you have been offended, but I am still trying to figure out why you keep coming back for more? I don't go start arguments on militant athiests' blogs--Why would you seek out something you are so against and continue to harass and insult the author of the comments for an entire day? Perhaps something terrible has happened to you in your life and this subject brings back the pain? Maybe you don't fully understand where we're coming from? I'm not sure, but it is clear to all of us that this blog is not where you belong (although we'd all have welcomed you without the insults)--There are plenty of people in our lives who don't share our points of view...people who don't agree with our choice of religion, our parenting choices, our values....but our blogs belong to US and thanks to that ole freedom of speech thing, we can come here to talk about who we are openly. People who sign on to our blogs to so by choice. Those who comment do so by choice.
You have CHOSEN to spend all day at the Catholic-NFP-watering hole...ALL DAY....and I think its beyond time to "agree to disagree" on just about EVERYTHING, sum it all up and say good bye.
So, what I have gotten out of the day is this:
Sharon and Co has an interest in talking openly about the pros and cons of NFP and helping others to learn these things as well. Sharon and several of her readers (though definitely not ALL) are members of the Catholic faith.
We don't really know who you are or really what you stand for, Joanne--You seem to have left all of that out....but what we DID learn from you today (and thank you very much) is that Sharon is a complete idiot who cannot spell...that our religion is ridiculous, that we are all vulgar, pointless wastes of space in this world (regardless of what we do for our families, how many people we help, how much love we have) and that our entire generation is headed to Hell in a hand basket.
I hope that covers everything. I am sorry for any childish remarks on my part, but I am not sorry for standing up for what I believe or for protecting my dear friend from hurtful and groundless insults from a bitter stranger.
Well said Jen. I think you hit the nail on the head here.
Why would someone spend ALL DAY attacking a complete stranger?? Do you not have anything better to do?
There is a term that is commonly used on the internet to classify people like you--a troll. A troll is a person that spends their entire day going from place to place trying to stir up trouble. They fish at a site for a while and if they don't get a bite, they move on to the next site. Most trolls suffer from a complex that stems from a lack of attention shown by a person's mommy or daddy. So, they seek out attention any way they can--much like our dear Joanne. Did we have mommy and daddy issues when we were younger Joanne?
You may have already realized this, but I think it might be good to mention. Humans tend to congregate in tight circles with people that have the same beliefs and preferences. That's what we do. So I guess I don't understand why you have such disdain for Sharon and her commenters agreeing with one another. Is this out of the ordinary for you? Are you looking for a community to call home Joanne? Do you need some friends to talk to? Are you jealous of this community here that stands up for one another??
As for the feeling of being threatened, please tell me why you feel threatened. I guess I didn't see it. What exact phrase are you referring to?? Without specific proof, I do believe a lawyer or police officer would but unable to help you.
I hope you have a better day tomorrow Joanne.
Good night, and don't let the bed bugs bite.
No, that is not a threat, there really is such a thing as bed bugs. They are really creepy looking and apparently they bite you when you are sleeping and they leave all kinds of itchy bumps on your legs. I wouldn't want that to happen to anybody. Please don't call the police on me.
:P
WOW! um, yeah, sorry I didnt read these comments earlier but, Jen and Sharon and Greg, GOOD JOB! I don't even know what else to say. Oh but wait, I am the same lousy generation as you guys, so it wouldn't help anyways. Sorry, had to. Maybe I shouldn't have but still. Not everyone in our generation expects everybody to so-called worship us or treat us like the center of attention. Sharon is one of kindest people I know, and I've only known her for a short time. As everyone else said, you are not being forced to read this or join in the conversation. Love you Sharon!
anyhoo...
This is your blog, and I think you handled yourself very well.
I loved all the answers to my questions.
Like I said I am not catholic, but I jut love knowing what the correct definitions of things are. And now I know. :)
about the troll incident...
it is hard but don't respond to anything anymore.. it just encourages ya know..
hahaha... this chick is crazy... Love trolls, love 'em.
"your generation?" Seriously? Let's throw in a "respect your elders," and make sure you call Sharon "little missy" at some point. Chiding a 28-year-old woman based on her age is so 50 years ago.
First of all, as someone who is older than most of you "young missys" here, lol...I have a few comments to add.
I am the proud mother of eight, two more in Heaven.
The subject of NFP, in the past, was not discussed as much as it is now (probably because it was not understood), and the regrettable result of that is alot of older women with either 1)an axe to grind at the chip on their shoulders or 2)more children than they feel they should have rightly been given by Almighty God...or both.
Either way, tough cookies, Ladies. What's done is done.
I applaud the effort of the present generation in trying to spread the word about God's natural method ~ and yes, it is a God-given blessing ~ and it is most unfortunate that we did not understand it "in my day" ~ I was raised in the 50's-early 60's, got married in 1977.
Being the happy wife of a traditionally-minded 100% Italian man, who was brought up in a large family, as was I, I do not for one second regret or bemoan my lot as the mother of more than 1.2 children. As a matter of fact, I am most humbled and grateful that God Himself would trust me so much more than I trusted myself...and even today it still boggles my mind.
With that said, I have this to add:
To all who were born in my time or earlier, you should be on your knees to God in gratitude and humility that He should so deign to bless you with any children at all, not to mention as many as you have had! Period.
As to all who came after us: Brava for following the dictates of your consciences in using NFP rather than caving in to the modern world and all the pro-Feminazi claptrap. If I were 20 years younger, I might have been in your shoes, and proudly.
I would ask you all, however, to keep in mind and in all charity, that there are those "out here in Blog-land" who may tend to disagree with you from time to time and to always address the issues broached with kindness and patience.
As for you, Sharon, I loved your post and I have nothing but good impressions with reading everything you have written.
You, Jen, Andrea and each of the others have a long way to go to reach where I am now, and I envy you that journey! I would give anything to be able to go back and do it all again.
Someday when we all meet face to face in Heaven, we can re-hash what we have done here, what He has given each of us, and how we all got through it! :)
In the meantime, Sharon, I hope I have found a new friend ~ thanks, Jen ~ and will be a frequent visitor here.
Your post (and I'm sure other posts in the past) has been very well-put, thought-provoking and highly educational. Coming from someone who "took things, aka 'babies', as they came," I am grateful for the insight!
God bless you and what you have here ~ a wonderful way to educate any of us out here who are willing to learn and see a different point of view.
And, Joanna, I offered my Rosary today for you ~ I hope someday you will be able to feel His love the way these others have.
May His peace be with us all...
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